344. - Michael Sebastian

All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Stateside with Kai and Carter, a new podcast from The Guardian. And they are using this podcast to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions that we all have about what's happening in the world. And they do it three times a week, Jason. Does that sound familiar to you? We don't really talk about, you know, a lot of international global news items and climates and cultures and sports and things like that. We do talk about fashion and wellness, but for everything else, Kai and Carter are a great place. All right, so who couldn't use more news? Listen wherever you get your podcast. or watch on YouTube. All right, them jeans. You ready to fucking podcast, bro? I'm ready to podcast, man. Let's go. What is it? Thursday. It's noon. I want to talk about something more important, and that's your broken heart. Since today, breaking news, Rihanna had her baby with another man. Yeah, I think that didn't that happen like last week? No, she literally had the baby today. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. I guess you hear the public. lay people are hearing about the presidency, but the real Rihanna fans knew that. I think maybe it was on Friday. I don't remember. So you think they delayed a release of the information to the greater public in the AP Newswire, is what you're saying? No, that kind of information could be a harm to the general public. The size of their brain might not be able to handle that in a way that is healthy for them or the other people around them. No, I'm just saying this because I think I saw... There's like a viral tweet going around from like a nurse that worked. Jesus Christ. In the hospital, allegedly. It ain't safe out here. You can't even, some fucking nurse with like press on nails and an iPhone is breaking news. This is just, you know, my mom is a nurse, Jason. Not a nurse with an iPhone. As you know, my mom is a nurse. I have never seen one of those. And she used to tell me stories about like, oh yeah, there would be other nurses that would be lit as fuck all weekend and just come in for their shift and hook themselves up to the IV.

And just, like, pump themselves full of fluids to make sure they could get through the job. Okay, okay. That's reminding me a little bit of last episode's cops of TikTok kind of vibe. We got nurses. We got turnt nurses of TikTok. But, I mean, it's like when you think about your teachers in high school being, like, 25. And you're like, oh, you're mean to me because you're hungover from Coke. Like, I know. That really escalated. I thought you were going to be more like when you were a kid, you're like. This 22-year-old first-grade teacher, she's like a real grown-up adult. No, no. And then you become 23, and then she's not. You're talking about straight to cocaine addiction. I'm talking about a 24-year-old that is in charge of your children going through dope-sick withdrawals out at the pub. You know, downing fucking pints, doing coke, maybe a little molly on a weeknight. You know what I mean? That's the person responsible for your child's education. And I will say they're underpaid. And that's maybe why they're drinking and using drugs. So that's something to think about Biden. Oh, interesting angle. That's right. I like that. And also, but, you know, the problem is in this day and age. Parents are just happy to have the teachers not fucking their kids. You know what I mean? That's just considered a dub to them. I mean, there's some parents like the kind of parent you're going to be. You're definitely the kind of parent who gets your son a prostitute at 17. That's definitely your vibe if you have a nerdy child. Will I hire my 17-year-old non-binary child a sex worker, Chris, is what they're called now? I'm sorry, you're right. The answer is a resounding yes. Is that better or worse than fucking a teacher, Pacey on Dawson's Creek style? It's much better. By the time my child is old enough to fornicate with a partner, I think sex work will be so destigmatized that it'll be old hat. You're kind of hoping for a child that will swing both ways because I think a male sex worker may cost less than a female. You know what I mean? Once again. If little baby Billy TJ can swing both ways, it would be nice if you swung on the cheaper side for tonight. Because in the dystopian future where my child is old enough to fuck, clearly times will be tough.

You think it's tough with the baby formula now, huh, brother? Yeah, that's right. I'm glad that your cheapness shines through even when it comes to the sexual intercourse. of your child um but you know what i mean i i uh i i i don't know man i don't know it's up to you it's up to you it's your kid you know what i'm saying you you do your thing yeah and i'm gonna that's what i'm gonna do i i love how did we get how did we get here i don't recall i don't recall either doesn't matter we did have a uh we did have a nice meal last night on beautiful fairfax you know it from the rip and dip and dolls kill store but it also has food there i don't know if you knew that well it's before before dolls killed planted their flag on Fairfax, there were actually a lot of restaurants there that were kind of scared away by, you know, the streetwear community, the Richard Milley robberies, and the Dave's Hot Chicken diaspora. I actually saw, for the first time ever, you know they always talk about firefighters being like hunky hot. young men who are in shape yeah i've seen it all the time i've seen bruce weber photos yeah continue you've seen bruce weber photos you've seen the long island episode of sex in the city where they go to the fireman's calendar fundraiser event of course those guys not maybe they're a little more brawny but i saw my first gaggle of portly firemen today or last night And it was odd to see them in Los Angeles, such a vain old town. I talk about this all the time. I see cops and firefighters at creation because they must get a discount, and it's very weird to watch, like, you know. body cam wearing racist enjoying an acai bowl it's a very strange you don't like seeing the boys in blue um no paying an extra 250 for the ashwagandha scoop exactly dude exactly i do not you want them to walk in and be like oh what this oh this is gay i'm out of here exactly i want them to hate it and i don't think they're even coming there to ogle at women i think they truly enjoy like a blue smoothie and a gluten-free banana bread that's crazy back the blue smoothie is what it is

algae, unicorn dust, blue smoothies matter. Blue smoothies matter. They open their face. When Sun Life finally says the thing. What did they say? You said the thing out loud? I don't remember what it was. Sun Life does have a Bible verse posted in the store, so you kind of know where their head's at. If you look past the retina graffiti and the Chanel surfboard, there is kind of a John 316-style graphic on the wall. Yeah, you taking notes, Chick-fil-A? Let's say the quiet part loud. That's what we need. We need these fucking food purveyors to let us know where they stand. I'm tired of the whispering. I'm tired of the closed-door meetings among CEOs, CFOs. Yeah, I'm glad you brought this up because the Raising Cane's Burbank location was supposed to be open April 26th, and I just think it's funny that it's May 19th and we're still getting pushback dates. So, yeah. A little transparency in that world would be nice. I'm sick and tired of these fucking restaurants not telling their customers what's really going on. I don't mean about the food. I don't care where the food comes from. We can't use supply chain issues as an excuse anymore. No, no. I need to know your religious beliefs. I need to know your political donations. I need to know where your kids go to school. You know, I don't care about where the chicken's sourced. It tastes good. We're fine. Well, speaking of chicken, back to my point of seeing... I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, no. Great transition. No need to... to apologize, of seeing a husky tub. We see fat-ass cops all the time, right? All the time. I saw some fat firemen, and they were on Fairfax. The fat firemen of Fairfax, we know where the fire truck pulls into the restaurant or the supermarket, and they take up 11 lanes or 11 parking spots, and all the firemen go in there because they're always on call. They were all at Dave's Hot Chicken loading up. So all the fat firemen eat at Dave's Hot Chicken. Do you think they're asking for extra bread? Like, what do you think the order? I don't know. Yeah, and they're blaming it on carbo-loading because they need all the energy, but it's like, we could be pulling more cats out of that tree, fellas. I was about to say, if I see a house burning, the idea of being fat and a firefighter or a police officer is so counterintuitive to what the job is, much like baseball players, where you do have to run even though it's not a huge part of the job.

But I see those guys that, you know, Yum Yum Donuts is offering a signing bonus, like you said last night. So let's give these guys a second chance. You know, if you get, if you're a police officer and you kind of, you know, you get your gun and badge taken away for some stuff you don't want to really talk about, you know. Okay. Yum Yum. Come on down to Yum Yum. We're not, you know, the station chief is not dancing all in the videos. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. We're like, we will ironically look the other way at your criminal record. Yeah, we think it's just funny that you have a criminal record and you're still able to say, do you want a tiger tail with that? They're simply fans of irony over there at Yum Yum's. I wonder that because we've talked to so many restauranteurs in the last month or so who are kind of complaining, rightfully so, about how hard it is to find employees. Labor is all fucked up. Every restaurant, it doesn't matter. And every restaurant is offering signing bonuses to people who are not executive C-suite employees like dishwashers and up. And I wonder if you work at a Yum Yum. Yum Yum is a regional donut shop here in America for Croatian and Argentine listeners. It's about as shitty as a donut as you could get. How much is this signing bonus really going to be? Look, I've never been offered a fucking signing bonus. It's pretty nice. Neither have I. Imagine being an hourly worker and getting offered a signing bonus. It doesn't matter how much it is. It's a great way to lure people. It's a worker's market. Big up to all the workers, unless you're a union member. We do have a guest today, Jason, on the podcast. And I'm sure he spent some time on Fairfax. Michael Sebastian is the editor-in-chief of Esquire. He's done some other stuff. I'm sure he's got a beautiful head of hair. It's a little annoying, if I'm being honest with you, just kind of taking a look at him right now. Okay. We'll get into that. He's got a head of hair that you just want to tug on, huh, Chris? I do want to give it a little tuggy. Make sure it's real. I don't know if this guy's been going to fucking Istanbul. You know what I'm saying? You never know. I thought you were going a different way when you said you want to give him a little tuggy. No, Jason, I would never talk like that on this podcast. I don't like to... You don't work blue. I like to bait. I don't like to go all the way when it comes to tugging. That's going to get you in trouble one of these days, young man. That's right, and hopefully it goes straight to the bank. At a certain point...

community is going to get plum fed up yeah i i'm sure they are they have other stuff to worry about thank god like sean mendez coming out oh okay all right yeah well let's give let's give uh big mike a jingle and see which uh pomade he uses see which pomade and i his name reminds me of a member of in excess for some reason yeah very cool name it's a very cool like two first names if your last name is like european he's doing something in the 80s and it's very artistic Let's give him a Zoom. This episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Squarespace. Obviously, Jason, you and I spend a lot of time on the World Wide Web, so do our peers, our listeners, our friends, our colleagues, maybe even your parents if they're freaky. And if you're doing anything in the world, writing, taking pictures. I do topless boxing. You need a website. Exactly, a website that works, that does what it's supposed to do, that allows you to be creative but also business-minded. Jason, there's one place to go for that, Squarespace. Yeah, Chris, I'm over here. I'm modifying calculators and putting Claude inside of them so you could cheat at school. And I just want a place where I could, you know, have everything all in one place. I can have the SEO tools so those future graduates can find me. And, you know, I'm able to accept, quote, unquote, donations for my services that might be gray area. You know what I mean? And then email campaigns. Hey, I got a new 2.3 version upgrade. Boom, boom, boom. Get the analytics going. Raise some money. Show your investor all of your cool analytics of what's going on. They're going to want to get in early. And we can use Blueprint AI to make your website look as professional as your competition, if not more. So, head to squarespace.com slash howlong for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code howlong to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Oh, this is huge for me personally. This episode of How I'm Gone is brought to you by TaskRabbit. Oh, baby, let me tell you something. This is not a joke. I use TaskRabbit a lot because I can't do anything. You need some art hung? TaskRabbit. You need a fucking...

Something put together? A cabinet? Got to reach that cheese grater on the top shelf? TaskRabbit. Anything you need, TaskRabbit can take care of it for you. And, I mean, it... How it works, TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area. They can help you move. They can assemble furniture, repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs. handled 1.5 million moves, and the numbers are just going up, Jason. Yeah, throw a little money at the problem. It's not so expensive, and that job that you really don't want to do is something that another person out in the world is very good at doing and would gladly do it in exchange for a little bit of money. So when life happens, your to-do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at TaskRabbit.com or grab the TaskRabbit app using promo code How long taskers book up faster, especially for same-day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That is $15 off your first task using promo code howlong with the TaskRabbit app or at TaskRabbit.com. All right, this episode of How Long Gone is brought to you by Quince. Jason, the temps are warming up. It's getting hot out there. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I need pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. And they're just easy, but still put together. I don't want to look like a slob. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on high-quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Breathable linen and soft organic cottons. Well-made basics, but without the luxury markups. That rare balance where everything feels elevated. but still effortless. Yeah, Chris, linen season is here. I wore a linen blazer to dinner a few nights ago in the warm California sun. But, you know, you got that Italy trip coming up this summer and quality European linen pants and shirts.

Upgrade that look starting at just $34. You know, if you get a nice linen suit, a little t-shirt underneath it, some chill shoes, you're looking good, but you're staying cool. The inside of your special areas are nice and dry as you turn up with your besties. So elevate that summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash how long for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, even on a nice holiday now available in Canada. That is Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash how long. That'll get you free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince punto com slash how long. You know, I'm the editor in chief of this podcast, Michael. So you kind of know what comes with the territory. Exactly. You just give and just load and work on people. He keeps the ship all hanging together while also doing nothing at the same time. Like an editor in chief of a magazine. You know what I'm talking about, Michael? I know exactly what you're talking about. Chris, I feel like we have friends in common, by the way. Oh, I bet we do. I bet we do. Corey Wilson. Shout out to Corey Wilson. Corey Wilson's why How Long Gone will be appearing at the Tribeca Film Festival June 13th. Get those tickets now. Oh, yes. Corey, you're my new favorite guy. Thank you. Nice. And as Corey, if you're listening, if you could move Tribeca Film Festival to a different time of the year next year, just... You know, it's busy travel season. The hotel's a little steep. Yeah, Jason's upset about the hotel prices in New York. It's like he's never gone in the summer. You know what I mean? Where do you guys stay? Where do you guys stay when you come to New York? Oh, that's funny. I stay in the apartment that I pay for. And Jason stays at the public hotel, usually, if it's available to him. He likes to be in the mix. You know what I mean? I'm a mixy girl. Michael gets it. I get you. I get you. If you want to try and beat the location. I implore you. What is your preferred? I mean, I know you live in New York, but what's your preferred New York hotel if budget's not an issue? Chris, I don't live in New York. I live in New Jersey. God damn it. Okay. Even cooler. The Glendale of New York. Welcome home, brother. It is. I've heard you guys say the Glendale of New York. In fact, I just bought a house in New Jersey. Oh, my man. Yeah. Okay. One question. Is it pool or tennis court or pool slash tennis court? Pool, tennis court, you name it. Pond. It's all there.

Okay. Yeah, and I have an immigrant's love of New Jersey. I have taken to it, I'm like, I'm a New Jersey evangelist. You're loving it in only a way that an immigrant could? Is that what we want to say, Michael? No, that's not what I'm saying. Not what I'm saying. You be clear. saying is i have embraced it in the way that you know somebody who comes to america and might love america and embrace it i've embraced it okay you're you're a bear hugging the copy cola yes is what you're doing i've heard i've heard people say this about new jersey and i i have said before and i'm on record is is saying that new jersey does get a bad rap like i think it's a pretty when i've been there it's been quite nice It's beautiful. It's green. It's leafy, much like Jason's Glendale. I'm sure the streets are wide like Beverly Hills. It seems like the only downside to New Jersey is it's not New York. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Yeah. You know, I think, like, I love working in New York. I love coming into Manhattan and, like, working. But you know what I also love? leaving new york and going home and like sitting in my backyard and i don't know looking at the trees sure there's wildlife there's foxes there's wild turkeys where we live it's great damn bro and it's only a quick 45 minutes from lower manhattan the train ride is 25 minutes door to door never more than an hour you really do sound like jason right now except it took him an hour to do his real real returns in west hollywood last night he's a little salty today that's false that's false thanks to a friend of the podcast it was a very quick transaction. Just the traffic. You know how it goes. No, that's what I mean. 25 minutes door-to-door in New Jersey to the offices. I mean, that's a tough... That's remarkable. Yeah, that's a tough thing to argue. To escape all the roaches and rats of Manhattan, you see a rat when you're sitting on the porch with your glass of sweet tea. You just pull out the old .22 and... That's right. Borrow one from a neighbor, and I'm good to go. Borrow one from a neighbor. Nice detail. That is nice. So do you drive as well, or is it a train only? A little bit of both. I drove today.

But sometimes I sometimes I take the train. Sometimes I drive, you know, whatever I'm feeling. Maybe a little. Do we stop snap on the spandex on Friday, casual Fridays and do a little cycling to work? I do not. I'm not a cyclist, I'm afraid to say, you know, I have bikes. Chris, Chris, I owe you 20. You're not old enough. That's right. You got five more years. Oh, yeah, usually. And I can tell you're in good shape. You know what I mean? But once once you get a little ankle thing, you know what I mean? You're going to have to buy the ten thousand dollar bike. You have to strap on the. paw normal studios and kind of get out there with the rest of these guys. It's all the stuff that you have to buy. I hate the idea of buying all of this stuff. before you even get into it you know i like to do like when you start like a hobby you know what i mean it's like that's how i feel about golf yeah yeah there's actually a lot of golf courses around us i don't golf but i feel like i want to join a like a country club just to hang out at the country just have a place to hang out you know that's right i love hanging out you have kids right i have two kids i've got two daughters who are six and three yeah you need a place to take them to hang out you know what i mean that's that's like you can i feel like At a certain age, you can just kind of send them to the pool, you know what I mean, while Daddy's at the bar inside, you know what I mean? This is exactly the vibe that I'm going for right now. Did you envision yourself being a New Jersey person or did this creep up on you? This crept up on me. So we were those, my wife and I were like the families that moved out of the city during the pandemic. Oh, you're part of the problem, like Fauci. I see what's going on here. Oh, yeah. No, no, no. We're definitely, we failed, man. And also like you, Chris, you did move across the country to Hollywood. Yeah, I mean, I moved to Hollywood because it was calling me. It wasn't because I was trying to escape anything. Dude, same thing with New Jersey. It was calling me. I don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, money calling. We lived on the west side. I would walk out my apartment door every day and look at the promised land across the river. That's exactly what it was. You're in the wrong business. We've got to get you in the advertising game. What actually happened, so we had, in August of 2020, we had a terrible fire in our apartment. Oh, shit. Middle of the night, 2 o'clock in the morning, we wake up, smoke alarms blaring. The apartment is full of smoke. We go and we, like, we grab our kids and we, like, dummies go to the front door without thinking. And we open the front door and there's flames in the hallway. Oh, shit. Really? Jesus, dude. So you had to escape the fire. Well, we had to go out the fire escape. So, like, we're literally, like, it's like. The middle of the night. I thought those were just for smoking cigarettes. I didn't know you could actually use them. I've only used them for real, real photo shoots. I know. They're not just for smoking cigarettes. How high up were you? We're on the fourth floor. We're on the fourth floor. Okay. So it's manageable, but still scary. Still scary. Yeah, exactly. So like half the building was destroyed. Thankfully, the flames never got into our apartment, but all of our stuff smelled like garbage fire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we spent three weeks living in a hotel in the city, like multiple hotels in the city. And then instead we couldn't get back into our apartment. So we were like, fuck it. Let's leave and go to New Jersey. I have to say this might be the best reason I've ever heard. You literally got smoked out of Manhattan. We did. We got smoked out of Manhattan. I don't think I'm the most calm under pressure guy. That's not really how I would define myself. Did you find yourself in like dad mode and you just were like – Did daddy go into daddy mode? I know exactly what to do right now. Like did you just know what to do or was it panic? I felt like – so until very recently, I've lived in an apartment my like entire adult life. So for like 20-some, 20-plus years, I've been living in an apartment, right?

And I honestly feel like I have been preparing for that moment in my head for all that time. Because you live in an apartment, you're like, think about all the times a fire could start, right? Like all the people that you're sharing this space with, like leave the stove on, microwave something stupid, fall asleep with a cigarette in their hand. And so when this happened, it was like, I guess I'll say at the end of it, I was like, okay, like it happened. I'm good now. Like I finally, this thing I've been preparing for in my head for 20 years happened. I will say that my wife was the one who actually like had it. more together than i did though like i she woke me up and like i was just sort of like standing there like well what do we do and she was like get the kids grab some shit Let's go to the fire escape. So, like, without her. It wouldn't have worked. Because I just feel like I don't, I mean, I think we all instinctively know what to do in that moment. But doing it is a very different thing. You know what I mean? Doing it is a very different thing. So, Michael, when you lit this fire, were you working alone? Or was this like a, like, how premeditated was this? You know, it's funny. It does sound as if you, a little Italian lightning, as they say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's funny that you say that. I mean, I don't, like, look. I guess we have to move to New Jersey. I don't know if New York Fire inspectors listen to this show, but I guess... We probably have some inspectors listening to this, but I don't know if we have any insurance guys. Yeah, look, I didn't put all of the kindling by the garbage can, but when I see an opportunity, I take it, okay? That's right. No, that's just good business, man. That's just kind of a good way to approach life. I mean, insurance paid for us to move, so I'm no dummy. That's right. That's really fucking crazy, though, because my apartment is in the East Village, and there was a big fire there in one of our friend's buildings pretty recently. I'd never been that close to one. I'd never seen it in my neighborhood. I'm like, oh, I look across the street and see that every day, and it was fucking totally burned out. New York is a scary place, because you're bound to others, not by choice. Yes.

Yeah. Like jail? Like, yeah, very similar to jail. Honestly, though, it is. It's like your neighbors are freaks. Everybody's a fucking freak. You don't know what's going on in these places. How are you taking to L.A., Chris? I mean, it's the greatest, most boring city in the world. There's nothing to do. Nothing to do. But it's so nice. And, like, you know, the produce is good, I guess. It's not, you know, there's no downside to L.A. Like, if you're able to leave and go experience culture somewhere, then it's totally fine. Whenever I, like, you know, I am out there, I don't know, maybe. Once a month, once every other month, something like that. I always have this experience. Maybe everybody from elsewhere is like this. When I first landed in L.A., I always am like, I don't get it. I still don't get it. It seems alien to me. And it's just kind of, I don't know, strange. But after a couple of days, you're like, okay, I'm starting to get it. I can see people start to settle here. You go to Enterprise Rent-A-Car on the shuttle. You get your yellow Mustang. You know what I mean? Give them a 20. Tell them to keep it up front at the tower. I mean, what's not to like? Wait, how did you know I always get a yellow Mustang? Because you look like a yellow Mustang guy. And if the Camaro is not available, what are you going to do? Yeah. When in Rome, when in Rome. I mean, I always came here to hang out with my friends mostly. And there was like work stuff, but it was mostly to hang out with, I mean, Jason, honestly, and a handful of other people. And I just think that that makes like any place, I guess it makes it a little more palatable. I think that like it can feel a little a little strange if you're like, you got to have a fixer. You got to have a fixer. You got to, you know, you got to go Californication mode. So let's talk about this Liam Gallagher chat that you got to have. Oh, hell yes. Yes, let's do it. Did you was this in person or a phoner? This was a phoner, man. Let me tell you, I wish it had been in person, but no, it was a phoner.

I would have flown in for that, but that's just me. I mean, you know, I don't want to – I don't know what the budgets are like over there, but I would have flown in. Sorry to interrupt, but here's the thing, though. So, yes, I didn't get to meet him in person, but I also have Liam Gallagher's phone number in my phone right now. Yeah, that's actually – that's very cool. You're right. That's a good point. I could text him. I mean, I could text him right now from us if you wanted to. I mean, he would certainly be like, who the fuck is this? Why are you doing this? What do you think he has your name saved as in his phone, Michael? I don't know, like some American dipshit or something like that. Esquire Knob. Esquire Knob. Yeah, Esquire Knob is probably it. Yeah, that's right. Esquire, yeah, fanboy. I don't know. Sorry, guys. Sorry, guys. My guess is he didn't save it. That's just my guess. I don't know. I mean, maybe he did. That's no shot at you, Michael. I'm just guessing that he's probably. He actually has you saved as Superhead in his phone. But in that article, he mentions that no real rock stars have a stylist. If you're not able to dress yourself in your own sense and identity, then. you know, hang up the, hang up the heels. You shouldn't be here anyway. How do you feel about that? I thought that was fantastic. As he was saying that, I was like, this, this is everything. This is why I'm talking to Liam Gallagher right now. Yes. He said, I mean, I think he actually went on and on about that. I kind of had to trim it, but he was basically like, if you, if you can't dress yourself, you might as well throw yourself out the window. You might as well kill yourself is what he kept saying. That sounds about right. I mean, I, I agree with him. I agree with him for musicians more than for actors. Actors are purely vessels. They don't know what the fuck's going on. Those guys are on a – they have to do different stuff. Musicians, I feel like it's more all-encompassing. The lifestyle, the look, it's a little more – When you're an actor and you dress yourself well, it's like – It's a nice surprise. No one ever expected you to do it. Even if you just put your socks on all by yourself, they're like, oh, good job. Good job, Leo. Nice that you put the new cargo shorts on. They fit. But I agree. I mean, unfortunately, there's so many talented people out there who are just not cool enough to have their own sense of style and dress themselves.

Who's to blame? Roblox? He just wears long shorts and Stone Island jackets now and talks shit is the best part about this. It's not like he's really going fucking crazy out there. You know what I mean? He's literally... But it feels authentic to him because he paved the road. Yeah. We paved the road. He's also 50 plus years old, so it's fine. He earned his right to be a cozy boy. Yeah, he did, though. He earned his right. I mean, the pictures of him, I'm sure you've seen these, like, the Daily Mail photos of him, like, jogging in the park by his house. Yeah. And he's, like, kind of thick, and he's wearing, like, a windbreaker, and you know he's just fucking sucking wind. Like, there's no way. This guy's running a 15-minute kilometer, you know? Like, there's no way. 15-minute kilometer. There's no way. But it's like he's getting the exercise, but he's also, like, talking shit about himself exercising. Oh, yeah. And it's like. Okay. I mean, I guess I back all of that. But the fits are diabolical sometimes. But I think when you have the track record that he has, we give you a leash. We give you room to play. Yeah. I mean, he told this great story about the Nebworth. show, and I think this part hit the cutting room floor. They did the iconic Nebworth shows. Jason and I went to the screening of the documentary together at the theater in Glendale. We were very familiar. During that, the second night of the show, he's wearing this amazing sweater. I don't know if you can remember the sweater that he's wearing. I asked him about that sweater because it seemed a little off from what he often wears too, which would be like a track jacket or something like that. You know what I mean? Or a parka. Yeah. And he said it was his girlfriend's sweater at the time. And that basically what happened was he forgot that they were doing two nights at Network. So he only packed for one night. Man. Liam, you absolute bellend. Coke is so cool. I forgot we were playing for 125,000 people two nights in a row. I don't have a fit. I don't have a jacket for this. Exactly. And he didn't want to wear the same thing two nights in a row, and he liked the sweater that his girlfriend was wearing, and he was like,

Let me try that on. And he thought it looked great, so he went with it. I mean, look, that's the power of being able to swag out and pull something off. You know what I mean? I don't know if I would have the confidence, even if I had 125,000 people screaming my name. Such a simpler time back then, because if that were to happen nowadays, it's very believable that Justin Bieber would forget that he had a show that day. But if he didn't have a look for it, he would just snap his fingers and... 11,000 different looks would appear in his hotel room instantly. But back then, it's like, we don't really know what to do. Yeah, the Umbro store is too far. The Umbro store is a helicopter ride away, so I don't know what we're going to do here. When you're on your own tour, when you're in Toronto like you just were, how much are you thinking about what you're wearing on stage? Great question, Michael. Great question. Jason has taken to wearing a suit on stage, which I... Really? Yeah, it looks great. It looks great on him. And I think it's it. It does simplify things, you know, in a nice way, because he one less thing to think about. Exactly. Before shows, Jason is like writing notes and kind of has like a set list. So I think he's like pretty focused on that. I'm usually entertaining the guest and enjoying some bottled water, you know, kind of backstage. I mean, Chris, Chris does all of his jobs as well and his work as well. But. Mine requires a different type of focus. Also, Chris's wardrobe, he has a lot more great formal outfits to pull from. This week, for example, almost every single day this week, I'm going to dinner at a nice restaurant or someone's birthday or something like that. I'm like, damn, it's hard work to put together six formal looks that are all unique, no outfit recycling because it's all the same people. It's nice to just say, fuck it, I'm going to wear a suit, I'm going to look great, I'm going to feel comfortable, and you don't have to worry about it. I couldn't agree more. Now, I know that this is basically sort of, I don't know, cliche for the guy, the editor of Esquire to say this, but I love to wear a suit. Classic fucking Esquire. Jesus.

These people, they're all the same. Exactly. I know. I know. I know that sounds like cliche at this point, but it's because of the ease that you're talking about, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, I don't have to necessarily think about it. I'm just going to grab this suit and put it on. Yeah. I think that we've been taught that suits are uncomfortable. That's how it's sold to us. Even on TV, the dad comes home from work and he takes his suit off like he's been in a straight jacket all day. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know, Al Bundy takes his tie off, and he's really having a tough time. But I think that, like, if it fits properly, it doesn't feel like that. You know what I mean? It should feel easy. And I think it's great for Jason, and I am actually interested. He's gotten me reinvigorated to kind of adopt something similar, especially because in L.A. at night, the weather is kind of perfect for a suit because the jacket is light. And you look good. The jacket selection is tough. It's tough. I only have so many suede chore coats. I can't recycle these things over and over. But I do think that I don't think about it that hard. Maybe I should think about it harder. But Jason surprised me with that, and he's stuck to it. And I think it's good for him. It's also good because it's one look that everyone is always happy to see. I have a lot of outfits that are quite questionable or like I just wear it to be like irreverent and amuse myself, you know, like wearing Yeezys or some other weird shit. And like you have to be in the mood to dress like that, like to have a little bit of a little stinker spirit to you. And as a Virgo, I don't always feel that way. I don't know if you can understand that, Michael. But when you're wearing the suit, you just don't think about you're just like, I know that every time I put this on, I'm going to walk out and everyone's going to be like. Oh, looking good. Yeah. And I don't always hear that, if you can believe it. I can't believe it. Listen to this podcast some more. Chris says it all the time. But how much of it has to do with the fact that we're both in our 40s? Chris, are you in your 40s? Chris is inching towards 40. We're looking at a September launch for my 40s. So, yeah, it's right around the corner. I'll keep you posted on some of the stuff going on for that.

I think it feels more appropriate. Jason, you tell me. It feels more appropriate at this age than it does at 25 to wear it. It would feel a little costumey at 25. Much like an allegory for turning 40 in general. Once you finally hit this age where you're like, oh, my life is over and it sucks, the best years are behind me, et cetera, et cetera, that's sort of negated by the fact that you really stop caring about so much shit that it is like a very freeing experience that people talk about having. I don't know if you experienced that, Michael. Stop caring about shit? Yeah, I mean, I guess. I don't know. Your 40s feel kind of intense. I don't know if you felt that, Jason. Nothing in my life is intense, sweetheart, so the answer is no. I was about to say, Michael, I don't want to diminish Jason, but I think you have a little more responsibility in your life than he does. That's my guess. I think maybe less it's you stop caring about things in general and you start caring less about what other people think about how you look and what you do and what you say. And you kind of realize that like everyone in the world, especially people younger than you, are all fucking idiots and whatever they have to say doesn't matter. And then eventually you turn 60 and you start flatulating in public and it goes too far. Because there's a line for everything. Yeah, there's a line for everything. Yeah, I mean, I suppose. I suppose there's a lot of truth to that. I mean, I think when I said it like it's more intense, though, is like even if you don't have a lot of responsibility, it's still like the decisions that you're making about your body even, I feel like. like they begin to add up then like certainly in your 20s whatever in your 30s maybe you feel it a little bit you know what i mean but like in your 40s all of a sudden it's like oh maybe i shouldn't be doing this so are you talking about like eating unhealthy food or are you talking about drugs and alcohol or sort of everything i mean all of the above all the above all the above yeah like you're like okay i know this is bad for me i shouldn't be eating high cholesterol foods or i shouldn't be drinking because the hangover is so much worse

But then you also hit an age where you're like, I made it this far. Things are kind of going all right. I know myself. I know my body. Like when people start doing stand-up comedy when they're alcoholics or they're drinking. So they're like, it worked for me so far. If I change that up, maybe my magic sauce will go away. Yeah, yeah. The spirit of myself will die. I actually think that the hangovers get worse, at least when you're in your 40s, is a bit of a myth. Now, I think that like if you're going out – Change my mind, please. All right. Here we go. Here we go. So if you're going out in Toronto and like drinking white wine and eating mushrooms and stuff like that, then maybe – So you have listened to this program. Okay. It's a little bit different than having a couple of glasses of wine at night with your wife over a nice meal. I just feel like you get you you you're like at that point you're experienced and you're kind of like, you know, OK, like I know what this feels like now. So it's not going to like totally throw me off. But yeah, like you're out till four o'clock in the morning doing that. Then, yes, it's definitely going to feel worse when you're 40, whatever, than if you're 25. Yeah, I think that Jason is Jason pushes the limits, I think. But he also knows like Toronto is the most drunk I've maybe ever seen him. And I've known him for quite a long time. And he has a great poker face. So I like that he's still pushing himself because he doesn't push himself in a lot of other areas of his life. So it's nice to see him kind of having a goal and reaching that goal. It's nice. It's nice to see. I push myself in the realm of self-mutilation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not great. Instead of bettering my career, friends, and family. Yes. I was in New Orleans recently and was like on a Sunday just – profoundly hungover, like existentially hungover, walking around the streets of New Orleans with some friends trying to find a place to eat breakfast. And like, and they seemed to be fine. And it was like hot and humid.

And that was the first time in a while where I was like, I'm going to die here on the streets, on magazines. This is the end for me? What were you sipping down there in New Orleans? You know, the usual hurricanes, hand grenades, you name it. Yeah, all the big ones. I don't think so. I feel like you were having a tasteful Negroni, weren't you? I feel like that makes me sound like an asshole if I'm like, yeah, no, it's drinking a tasteful Negroni. Hey, man. This is a mixology positive podcast. As long as I just can't hear about martinis anymore. It's exhausting me. It's exhausting me. Martinis are hot these days, though. No, of course, and I understand the appeal. It's a sexy drink. That's why Chris doesn't want to hear about it anymore. It's too hot. We talk about this a lot on the show, but it's like... And maybe you can relate, but what's popular now is people want to eat hamburgers and french fries and have a martini, and that's the only kind of restaurant that anybody wants to go to, which I'm fine with. It's just a strange – it's a big shift from tweezer food. You know, that wasn't that long ago to now people wanting the most. Well, I think I think it's a it's a pendulum shift. It's a reaction to all of that tweezer food and those fussy cocktails where like there's a 50 percent chance you're not going to like it. And even when a burger is bad or, you know, a martini is is vodka and ice cubes. You know, it's like it's it's easy to fuck up a martini, but it's also. easy to make something that is tolerable. It's going to work. And the same thing with french fries and burgers. We just don't try. Everyone fucks it up, so we have to make it easy for them. I was at the Sunset Tower Grill a couple of months ago, and they fucked up a martini, actually. Oh, really? Let's get into it. Shots fired. This is Jason's favorite form of discussion. Public flogging of restaurants. Go on. Tomorrow was great. The rest of the meal and everything like that was great. The setting was great. But I was really...

surprised that like like it's hard to mess up a martini you know what was the issue what was the issue uh it was not cold enough first of all it was like it was borderline room temperature vodka i mean that was pretty much the the main my main complaint my chief complaint was that it was just sort of like warm yeah but you need it because you need that thing to be ice motherfucking cold oh yeah you need it to be ice cold and you can have a easily ruin a martini by having a heavy vermouth hand and everyone has their own opinion on the perfect amount of vermouth so Room for error. Jason, how do you feel about the martini, though? So, Chris, you are anti-martini right now. Well, I'm not anti. I mean, I don't drink, so it's no skin off my back. But I just think it's like – it's just really interesting to me because I think it also gets people fucked up. So it's a little bit like – No, it's a – well, that is a big part of it. I think, number one, it's a reaction to fussy mixology cocktails with 11 ingredients and rosemary that you light on fire and ice cubes made out of fucking blah, blah, blah. bjork's piss i don't know what it is you have that and then you have a martini where it's so simple it's two things number one number two it gets you fucked up because it's pure alcohol and number three it's the ultimate skinny girl there's nothing in it there's not even it's not even a vodka soda it's just vodka Dan, that's a good point. I didn't think about that because wine, even the natural ones, can be caloric. We all know that. Full of sugar. Oh, I see. Not even good sugar. No, not the good sugar, sweetie. I'm not against it. I just think it's just a funny shift that I just wonder what's next. Do you have any predictions for the alcohol market? I learned about something, and you know what? Maybe this is sort of like a myopic view into it. but I recently learned about a shot that is very popular among Gen Z. Okay. So it's called the Green Tea Shot. So this was literally like, this was just pitched to me as a story. Like we should do a story on the Green Tea Shot, which is, I believe it's whiskey, peach schnapps, and sour mix. What the fuck? Right, exactly.

Certain bars in New York, the bartenders, the people there will mix up these shots in a batch form for Thursday, Friday, Saturday night or whatever because they know that all the people under 25 are going to come in and just order a shitload of them. Interesting. So I just Googled the green tea shot and all the mommy blogger recipe websites all have recipes for them. food loving family and the pickled plum all these so it seems like it's a drink that maybe ironically it's ironically being well well maybe not ironically but maybe just the diaspora of the south and the midwest when everyone moves there and they're like i want my green tea shot i need my peach schnapps irish whiskey and sour mix i don't even i can't even really understand from those words what that would taste like i have no base of reference for that no i have no idea either like it's it's just like it's yeah it's i want to know why it has to be irish whiskey right yeah well with any with any cocktail or shot like this that young people are gravitating towards usually the the reason is it doesn't taste like alcohol it just tastes like a sweet yummy starbucks peach yeah whatever drink yeah that's definitely true yeah i mean i what i i am interested in shots though in general like Okay, let's go, brother. I feel like shots are having a moment. On his LMFAO shit. For the same reason, though, you think, maybe? Because that's a trend that I have not noticed. So keep your eyes peeled for this. I did take multiple shots when I was in Toronto, but that's beside the point. Sorry, go ahead. No, I heard. You turned down more than you actually took, though, it sounds like. That's right. You like that ratio? So there are fancy mixologist bartenders who are mixing up bespoke shots. that are, I mean, I don't even know what they are, right? But it's not just like straight up tequila or something like that. Right, right, right. It trickles down all the way to, you know, the green tea shot and so on. So you, Chris, you asked like, what is that next trend? I think that like you're going to see that like shots, shots are the things that are like. I like this. I think it's something that everybody can relate to. I think like Jason said, it can be low calorie, you know, pure, pure. And I don't, I mean, the tequila thing, do you think that's waning?

Guys, or is tequila still number one after the martini? I think tequila's still number one. It's just too good. It's just too good. It's a stimulant, not a depressive. I've heard that's actually a lie. Okay. I think that's probably a lie. I think that's like an ad agency reframing it the way that Kale was made cool, Jason. Something that's substantiated by scientific information. It's not just like up to debate. Randy Gerber saying it on his Instagram story doesn't make it science. I don't know where you're getting your white papers from, but this doesn't sound – Don't say white papers. I'm saying this is information that I've heard for years, way before Randy Gerber came into my life and changed everything. No, I'm sure. I just don't know. I just need to see. You want me to pull up the New England Journal of Medicine PDF document from 78? We'll make a T-shirt out of it. It'll be an NFT. That's what I would like to see. But I do think that – I think the shot comeback could be great. drinking that much but i guess they are i guess yeah do you learn do you feel like you learn a lot from the young people at the office like do you think they are you because i feel like i'm pretty tapped in but then i can be around a person 15 years younger than me and genuinely learn something oh 100 oh yeah yeah yeah Yeah. I mean, I don't I mean, look, I don't want to keep going back to this like theme of being in your 40s or something like that. But I do think that it's a dad's rule. Let's get into it. Super easy. It's super easy. I mean, I mean, God, especially like once you move to New Jersey or something like that, it's super easy. Stick a fork in them. Right. So it's it's like but it's super easy to just like sort of kind of drift off. And I don't know, like. listen to music from a certain period of time and, and kind of get set in that. When you say set in that, you mean your ways? Yeah. I think, I think I read that like the, the average American stops checking for new art and media around the age of 33. Yeah. I mean, I could see that. I, my theory is that it's basically like it's frozen in whenever, for a lot of people, whenever you think like you're, you peaked was, you know what I mean? So it's like,

If you peaked in high school, then then that's going to be when you're going to like, you know, the music. That's why I still listen to Operation Ivy every day. I think that there's I think I have a two peak theory, though. I think I experienced a peak and I could experience another one. I'm not going to limit myself to one. Yeah. What does it mean if you haven't peaked yet? Well, that's probably why you're, you know, such a talented DJ, because you're constantly exploring new music. That's why that's why it seems that my hair is almost growing back. more i want to talk about your hair too because in the intro i was talking about how you have such a beautiful head of hair and i you know jason does as well is there anything what products are you chris chris was mentioning wanting to give it a tug not in necessarily a sexual way but more in a gotcha moment style reveal to kind of see what that feels like it's been a while for me it's kind of crunchy today actually i gotta say because you are putting you're using a pomade is that what are we doing i am using a pomade so i was kind of what i wanted to go for today I had a couple of meetings before this. It was kind of an updated 80s yuppie look. I might be going to Odeon for lunch and doing some cocaine or something like that. That's the kind of look I was going for. I hope I pulled it off. Yeah, I think you're pulling it off. From what I can see, you've got a lunch at Texarkana. And managing that hair, though, it seems like it could be – I mean, I'm sure there's a full range of products that have to go into this. Not really. It's just pomade. And I got to – so I have – so shout out to Simone, who's my guy down in the West Village who cuts my hair. Oh, this guy's getting a $200 haircut, Jason. That's what the trick is. Oh, no, dude. It's not a $200 haircut. It's like a $65 haircut. $65 is not – that's competitive pricing. Yeah. That's not bad. Yeah. Simone. Simone is a real live Italian. He's from Rome. I have told him that, like, if you ever move back to Rome, I would just have to, like – I'm going to follow you. Sometimes I joke he's my best friend because, like, I see him so consistently. And we've been going – you know, I've been going to him for, like, seven or eight years. Simone would take a bullet for you, clearly. Michael, you're like –

Well, Simone will not take a bullet for Michael. You take one in the leg, lower leg for him probably. Lower leg, definitely lower leg. I don't want to hit any main artery. No arterial damage is guaranteed. Don't worry. Arterial damage. You mentioned earlier a couple references to this podcast. Does that mean that you have listened to this podcast before? I am a fan of this podcast. I listen to this podcast. Oh, baby. That's good, because Chris exclusively makes this show for different editor-in-chiefs around the world, so I'm glad that you have wandered into our little holding cell. Yeah, that's – I mean, look, what can I say? I have a type. You know what I mean? Sorry, Jason. Sorry. We all know your type too, bro. They just – they work – Chris, what is my type? What is my type? I don't want to get into that. We've gotten into that enough. I didn't think so. I didn't think so. I discovered it through some of the press that you guys were getting. Oh, thank God that shit works. You know what I mean? Oh, that shit works, man. Yeah. Well, after Esquire turned us down so many times, we had to go hit the times. I get it. I get it. I mean, it's a cover thing. You know what I mean? I can't – That's good. I mean, press works for the ears that matter. The press really does work. A lot of our most rich and famous and powerful listeners found out about it that way. Did it really? Did you guys notice a change when the times did that story? You don't notice a change, but you eventually notice a change, like a word of mouth situation. We don't want to use the word vibe shift, but yeah, a different echelon of listener kind of gets unlocked because there's still so many people who are just like... I read the times. It's just what I do, and if I see about it, it's in there. What is your podcast intake? Do you listen to a lot of shows? Let's talk about our show a little bit more, Chris. I exclusively listen to How Long Gone. When you listen to How Long Gone, how often are you like, oh, I wish I was on the mic with these fellas right now because I have a great, fun joke to interject or a little anecdote or a tag? I would say almost never. Okay.

You just like to watch? I just like to watch when it comes to listening to you guys. Yeah, exactly. I'll let you watch. So you're not a big podcast guy in general. Of course I listen to podcasts. Don't say The Daily. I'm not a huge Daily fan. That's right. You don't want to start your day with depression. That's smart. Yeah, the whole thing just sort of bugs me. Sure, I listen to The Daily when it first started. It's a compelling idea, but honestly, when the news is bad, I need to take it when I want it. I can't take it every morning in the ears. Chris gets upset when the news is bad. And that's why we started this podcast. I wonder, though, with what you do, do you think that this is a viable... Do you think this really is the new frontier, or do you think we're barking up the wrong tree? Can editors make as much money as podcasters, is what Chris is asking. Yeah, yeah. Because some of the podcasters are making hundreds of millions of dollars every year. Well, there's like three of them, right? It's like... No, there's more than three that probably make... Maybe not, you're right, you're right. But there's many awful human beings who... make $500,000 a month from podcasts. Like who, Jason? I'm not going to say names, but so many of them. I wanted to say that, yeah, there is a weird world of people making a lot of money doing this, and I think they have to pander a bit, you know what I mean, and do things a little differently than we would want to, let's say. What does that mean? That means that I think they discover... That if they cross the line in the right way, they appeal. Or the left way. Or the left way. You just have to basically politicize yourself. and go that route, and then people get dedicated to you because they think you're saying something that others aren't. As a centrist or a non-participant in the conversation, you can only get so far versus somebody who takes a hardland stance on something. You're going to lose fans while gaining new fans. I agree with that, but my question would be, how is that any different from the radio that has existed for... The only difference is radio people...

don't make $500,000 a month unless you're Howard Stern. And you can be an unknown person who started a thing in your basement during COVID. I think you're also rewarded. I think you're rewarded more quickly. I think it's like you instantly... You're empowered to continue down the path because you look at your Patreon, and you're like, holy shit, this thing's up $50,000. If I talk about the Ukraine more, maybe I'll get another $50,000. You know what I mean? It's literally like that, though. If you look at the charts, it's like the bigger stuff. I mean, Rogan's the best example. It's polarizing. You know what I mean? People hate it, and people love it, and the people that love it are happy to spend money on it. You know what I mean? That's the thing. That's the difference. But that's the world we live in. I think some people listen to this show because we'll say something negative or positive about something they're thinking. It's just not general enough to make the kind of dent. that some of this other stuff is yeah and instead of like ukrainians are all nazis we're saying like yeah this smoothie is better because of the almond milk yeah like this yeah it's a low stakes game we're playing but it is it is a we don't have a lot of unpopular opinions what i will say though is that you guys bring a level of intensity to those kind of quotidian everyday things that I think is very appealing to people, right? So the same intensity that Joe Rogan is bringing to vaccines or something like that, you are bringing to almond milk, which I think is refreshing, right? Yeah. Great word choice there as well. Yeah, I'd like to think so too. And check out Khalifa almond milk. It's very refreshing. I love a frosty glass of that right about now. I think you're probably right. But it's just interesting because I don't know if I want to listen to – I don't know. I don't listen to – a lot of podcasts anymore jason does and jason does a really good job of keeping up with what's going on but i think that like those shows also i think get you locked in to like i'm part of this thing and i understand the language which is something that i think any good any good show does you know what i mean it's it's like writing though it's like if i like your voice i'm gonna read your stuff even if it's about something i don't want to see but also uh you know kind of like how you're talking about having these you know spirited

or almost yelling matches about something as trivial as almond milk or something, that reminds me of very Seinfeld-y and Larry David things where the reason why I like gravitating toward that stuff is because it becomes absolutely evergreen and it will stand the test of time. If you're arguing about what Fauci did this one time or whatever, it's like you can't go back and listen to it a year later or even a month later because the news cycle has, has engulfed you so much. Correct me here if you think that I'm wrong. I feel like maybe I'm getting too into the weeds with media in saying this. This is where media goes to weed. Publishers, I feel like a lot of publishers, they're sort of a tail wagging the dog sort of thing. They are chasing... stories that they know are ranking on Google or trending on social media or something like that so they're sort of like going to where they know people are and podcasters on the other hand and this is where I would say correct me here are kind of you guys are just like talking about what interests you what interests your guests what's on your mind and so on and like maybe that doesn't unlock a huge audience it's still appeals to a very loyal audience that that one yeah yeah you also start to learn and this is i mean this goes back to writing again it's like we jason and i will do things we maybe maybe wouldn't normally do because we get to talk about it like not not in a way that we're like Just like, oh, we should go to that because it'll be fun to talk about it. Like how a writer that doesn't do anything has nothing to write about. Exactly. You have to live life and have experiences to create. Exactly. So it's like the Coachella thing is like, yeah, this is going to be a pain in my ass, but it's going to be great. It's going to be great for us to talk about. It'll be great for us when we get there. And you do that stuff that I wouldn't have done. three years ago with no reason. I wouldn't have done that. Getting paid to talk has made us come out of our shell. Yeah, exactly. The comparison to writers is interesting, and I hadn't really thought about that, which is that for a long time, newspapers, magazines, you name it, had columnists, and many of them still do, Esquire still does, have columnists on staff.

that just cultivate an audience and they can write anything and you just, you want to read what they have to write. And that's kind of what podcast, the best podcasting is, right? No, I would agree with you. I mean, that's, I think about, yeah, I mean, I love George Plimpton, for example. I have no interest in sports. You know what I mean? That's like not for me. I have a George Plimpton book right here next to me that. that I'm reading. So yes, I agree with that. But that whole thing, like reading about fireworks or reading about playing football or like the way he did it, I was like, damn, this is fucking, I would listen to this guy talk about anything. Are you Plym Nation, Chris? I'm Plym Nation. I mean, I just think that, I think that that whole thing about, and just the way I would, I just personally would love to do that. Like I would love to play, you know, professional tennis for one, you know, half a set. Because I think that it's just like – back then especially, that stuff was even more difficult to do. Now I think that kind of thing happens a little more often. But my point is that the participatory thing and what he did always struck me as like, oh, I would read this guy talk about anything he's doing because he makes it interesting. And I do think that now it's like we got to talk about a TikTok trend or like why Harry Styles is wearing a onesie. You know what I mean? Because that gets clicks, and I get that. But I think there's room for all of it. But I do think giving space for a columnist, like you're saying, just to kind of, hey, do your thing. Like our friend Raven Smith does that for Vogue, and it's good. It's current enough, but it has enough of him injected in it, and it stays interesting for that reason. So I'm curious. Besides Raven Smith, are there other writers that you're like? I just Dean Kissick was on the show. I love Dean. Um, I think he's really good and he writes about, about art mostly, which is like sometimes over my head, but I think he has a fun way of making it interesting, but not in the way. I mean, I think that like in the way we're talking about where it's like super current, you're right. It's, it's not, it's not few and far between, but it's like, I want to read Rachel Tash and talk about fashion because she's fucking really great at it. Like, I really want to read her talk about it, but like,

The Raven example I use because it's a little bit general. It's a little bit like this is what happened to me this week. And I do think that is very different than like an op-ed column that's like charged. You know what I mean? Like it really is like one person's kind of view. And like you said, if you respect that and relate to it or you just find it interesting, then you follow it. And that's like. how you get people to subscribe to shit. You know what I mean? Kind of, you know? Yeah. I mean, we have, we have a politics writer named, uh, Charles P Pierce and he's been, he's been there forever, right? Like he's been, he's been there forever. And we now have a subscription like product around him that is very successful. And his stuff is like, he's got characters, you know what I mean? Like basically in his writing, like he refers to like certain people in politics, like, uh, Like what was my favorite like bobbleheaded slapdick is his name for some like Republican congressman or something. And if once you get into it, you know who that is and be like, yeah, it's a hook. It's nice. Yeah. Because like often he'll write these stories that like to the to the person who's just joining the conversation, they'll be like, what is he talking about? But like once you kind of get into it, you feel like you're part of this community. And like, and you get it and it's like, you know, it's, it's, it, I mean, it's kind of ideal for, for media right now. Right. Is, is that idea of like creating that community. Have you, have you built a discord around this, this man's correspondent writing? Cause if you really want to build a community. How's the Slack channel going for him? Because the like-minded fans of his writing have to congregate. What we've actually done, which is super lo-fi, is we'll do conference calls with him. Oh, I like this. I like this a lot. Yeah, so what we'll do is we'll send out a marketing email to his subscribers and to people who like... i don't know or on some list or something like that and we'll say that charlie and his editor are going to talk about the supreme court or something like that for an hour and we will get thousands of people will just dial this number and like literally listen to him and basically like a speaker phone wow so instead of doing like a clubhouse or twitter spaces you're like that's a little uh lame and dumb let's just do an old-fashioned conference call yeah i mean

Part of it is that Charlie is like 68 years old. Yeah, I was about to say. I was about to say. I feel like he's like, I know how to use the phone, so we're going to do it on the phone. Charlie thinks that Zoom is for communists. Yeah, he's like, I don't use – that's actually – that's very cool. Like I actually – I really like that, and I think that that feels – I mean it's the same thing. I think we do this a little bit. There's people in our lives that have become characters on the show. Like you know our friends by name. You know what I mean? Because we talk about them and like – you know, some are, are more well known than others, but I think Glendale plays itself. Glendale does. Glendale does play itself. But I think that like, for what you guys are doing, like fight identifying this guy, like, okay, this Charles is a very popular political writer. He's created this own planet. What can we do to, to make this bigger because it's working versus, versus like J like forcing him to do a discord. It's like, that doesn't feel natural to this 68 year old politics writer. A conference call feels natural. And like, You know, people want that for him. They don't want him. They probably don't want him to try to adapt. That's not what they're looking for. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, we had talked about, like, should we, like, do road shows with him? Kind of like what you guys do. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. it didn't feel like it was worth the squeeze, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why conference call and not podcast? Or is there a podcast version of it as well that I don't know about? There's not a podcast version of it. We've certainly talked about that before. I think it's, you know. Jason, it's just like the reason we don't record our shows. It's because it's like if you're on it, you're on it. How much money do you charge to listen to the conference call? If you're a subscriber, it's free. So what it really is is it's meant to get. get more subscribers to Esquire and to give value to the people who have subscribers. Sure, sure, sure. No, I mean, I think that's, you know, I would rather have that than a tote bag. You know what I'm saying?

I'd like both if there's an option. Yeah, as far as benefits for a subscriber goes, it's like that to me ingratiates the magazine and the personalities more into my life in a way that's usable. And it seems like a lot of like, I know Nomi Fry was doing things like that, like town hall talks with the New Yorker. It's just, you know, you have to do new ways to add, do new things to add value to your. Your weird little business that you're running, that is always changing. Well, Jason, the good news is we do have tote bags that have an illustration of Charlie's face on them. Oh, I like this. I like this. This guy's like, you guys drew me? Okay. All right. Well, what are the royalties on this? I need to start being interested in politics. Maybe I'll check Charlie out. It does. I mean, that's the thing. Charlie sounds like he approaches it in a pretty fun way, I have to say. It kind of feels like a Left Sets kind of vibe where he's going to talk about music or he's going to talk about politics, but then he'll weave everything else into his normal everyday complaints, hopefully. Yeah, you should check it out. I mean, I think you would find his version of politics very palpable. Are you familiar with Bob Left Sets? Yeah, of course. The Left Sets Letter? Yeah. You know, it's something that I have subscribed to because I used to be in the music business. I've subscribed to it since the early aughts, basically. He's been doing it the same way. And I kind of appreciate – I mean, he's absolutely insane. But I kind of appreciate that it's stayed in email, basically. Like, you can go to the website and it gets updated like once a week where you can see them. And he does like a serious XM show, which is like the most boomer shit of all time. But like – It's like the fact that it's literally a newsletter that comes to you that's fucking typed out and there's no graphics. There's nothing cool about it. You get the feeling that he typed it all with one finger. Yeah, exactly. But that's who he is. That's why it feels good. If it became some slick thing, you'd be a little bit like, I'm good. I don't know if I like this. You don't want the VR version of this newsletter where he talks about what Bill Maher said last weekend.

Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of people out there who kind of are in this media world, but in the Internet kind of Twitter space, you know, like Chris, for example, he might be thinking more in tweets. You know what I mean? Like you've heard that phrase before. Yeah. Do you think, you know, as an editor in chief of a legacy magazine for almost 100 years now. Do you think in magazine the same way that Taylor Lorenz and everyone is thinking in tweets now, and do you think that is making your brain better or worse? Thinking in magazine compared to thinking in tweets. Interesting. Maybe you're not thinking in 140-character zingers or quips, but you're thinking in log lines and tag lines and subheaders and things. Um, I, I will say, and I feel like sometimes this, uh, uh, like it, it might annoy my wife if I like say something like this and you can probably see why in a second, but like, I don't like it when people bury the lead when we're talking, you know what I mean? Where it's like, yeah, if somebody will go on for five minutes and then all of a sudden they'll get to the point of it. I think that that's the one thing. And maybe that just comes from like a newsy background. It's like, can, can we get, can we get to the lead first? What's the guts of the story? Yeah. Bury the lead might be one of the most like, media-specific phrases that has crossed over into the mainstream. Like, I think there's a lot of people that, you know, if you type TK in an email, people don't know what the fuck that means. You know what I mean? But if you say bury the lead or you spell graph wrong, like, I think bury the lead is the most popular crossover from the vernacular. Chris, do you think that burying the lead is just edging? First stories? Wow. Damn, bro. Yes, it is. I mean, yeah. So when that lead finally hits, it's so good. It's so good. Chris, how are you doing with your – I know you recently, maybe even as recently as this week, talked about getting off Twitter. How are you doing with that? Oh, I'll never – I will never do that. It's my only true love. It's the only thing that I keep returning to for the pure joy as well as the deep –

deep-rooted abuse you know you got that one uncle where if he stops doing meth he'll die that's me twitter for chris that's me i don't think it's the only thing keeping him alive now i just don't think to me when all the musk stuff was happening i was like this is like when people said they were going to move to canada if trump's elected like nobody's doing this shit you guys are all full of shit we're all addicted to this and we had we had uh joe mandy on the podcast this week who's a comedian who famously was huge on twitter and trolled people only and bought a bunch of followers and then just cold turkey quit yeah and that's why i was like damn that's fucking crazy but i um i have no interest in getting off i don't have like i think social media is has its pitfalls and its dangers you know what i mean but i also think that like this is the world we live in this is like how we make money i can't i i can't act i can't turn my phone off for a week and just like decompress. Like that's not an option. Do you think that if you left Twitter, it would have a material effect on this podcast or on your own? Yes, you do. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Jason, what do you think? Yeah, I think I agree. It would. It would. I mean, in terms of just, you know, base level marketing the show alone, like we use social media to market our podcast and that's pretty much it. So that, that would affect it greatly, but I don't know. I mean, It's also because we're so resistant to building a Web3 community by having a Slack channel or a Discord or we're going to do an AMA on Reddit, any of that stuff. We're so resistant to that that Twitter and Instagram is kind of the only place where we do have an active conversation with our audience. I also think that's where our audience is, to be honest. I think they're on Discord. I think they're on Slack. But I think that we 100% know. they are on Twitter and Instagram. You know what I mean? There's no education element. There's no luring them to a new platform. Like, that's where everybody is. So I would definitely have assumed that Instagram is the place for them. Honestly, it surprises me a little bit that you think a lot of your audience is on Twitter, but maybe it should. I don't know. I think it's because I'm active, and, like, that's my preferred platform. Like, I feel the most comfortable there, and I fucking let it spray. You know, I think that's really what it is. Yeah, I think it's, like, it's 50-50 people know that Chris is,

so locked into twitter and everyone else who's also locked into it are going to be like i know chris saw this and he's going to have a take on this and i want to hear what it is and then the other half of the coin is i don't have twitter i don't get it it's fucking weird so i listen to these two fucking guys so i don't have to go on twitter they tell me what they just read twitter to me so it's all sorted free podcast guys there's a yeah there's a part of that for sure there's a part of that for sure and chris did i hear hear or read or see something that you did you drop out of high school yeah yeah yeah and that that's amazing to me so and and can you give me the like cliff's notes on on how you got to where you are yeah i i just kind of figured it out there was no real i mean i i just that was too cliffy chris no yeah yeah i'm sorry that's that's uh No, I mean, I basically managed a band, and we were successful, and I got lucky. I just was in the right place at the right time. And then it went from there, really. Like, I basically went from, like, working retail for a couple years to, like, all of a sudden, like, I'm in somewhat of the big leagues. Yeah. And was able to somehow through. You said the Billboard Awards? I was at the VMAs, you know what I'm saying? But it was a somehow I was able to manage. this thing for long enough to where it was like legitimate after a couple of years. And then I kind of, you know, you just kind of like, Oh, this is how people make money. Like you just bullshit the whole thing, you know? Um, and I mean, but honestly, like those, a lot of these jobs are just bullshit. You know what I mean? It's like, if like managing bands is a real, a strictly relationship business, which is similar, not similar to what we're doing now. You know, it's like, Jason has a lot of relationships from his career. I have a lot of relationships from my career, and that all levels up to the show. It's the same shit that you're doing. You have people that you want to work with that you've known for a long time. You plug them in, and then it just keeps growing from there. That's all it is. As long as you work at a magazine or a DJ, we're going to get you. Yeah, exactly. If you can play a guitar and you're signed to one of the five independent record labels that I respect, you're coming on this fucking podcast. Yeah, that's the bottom line. We've got a lot of slots to fill. That's the bottom line.

But Michael, we really appreciate you joining us today on How Long Gone. We only scratched the surface, Michael. We'll have you back on to chat some more. We'll have you back on to chat some more. We'd love to hang in New York. I feel like you and Jason could really kind of, you know, I'd take you guys to Sephora. Yeah. We kind of do like an Instagram live of hair product. I think that would be a fun. Kind of breakdown. Show me your New York, Michael. Exactly, yeah. Jason, I feel like what you and I have to do is hang in New Jersey. I think that's more. Oh, there we go. He's offering. He wants Jason to play with the kids. Yeah, man. Come on out. We'll hang out in the backyard. We'll grill, you know. He's going to make Jason work. I was about to say, he's putting Jason to work. He's like, go ahead and throw those in the grill. You can watch that, right? You got the burger thing. You can handle this, right? As long as the cornhole is flowing. Cornhole. is flowing the grill's going yeah come on it's a good life out there don't worry we'll take the uber black to New York to New Jersey Michael thank you for joining us Esquire obviously comes out monthly and it's available on newsstands check out Esquire but also go to Esquire.com read us every day that's right read us every day that's right how long gone listen is three times a week Esquire read us every fucking day that's the takeaway here alright Michael we'll see you soon bro thank you alright thanks guys alright later bro